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Shane Littrell's avatar

"I could go on all day, but you get the idea. It’s pretty obvious why people lie: self-interest. They’re trying to protect their reputations or advance their agendas."

That's an oversimplification. People also often lie to protect themselves from physical harm or to avoid legal consequences. There's also a large literature on prosocial lying (i.e., lying to protect or otherwise benefit others). Same with evasive bullshitting. Most everyday bullshitting is evasive (rather than persuasive) and is largely done to avoid hurting someone else's feelings or reputation. Rather than having a "disregard for the truth," it's actually 100% focused on avoiding revealing a truth (same with prosocial lying).

Your description of "the bullshit zone" just sounds like another way of describing the rationalization process brought on by cognitive dissonance (its recent replication failure not withstanding). I suppose "bullshit zone" might be catchier to some people, but it feels less explanatory than cognitive dissonance theory.

In terms of lying, the majority of research on lie detection shows that we're pretty bad at spotting it (no better than chance). The research on bullshit shows that some people are pretty bad at detecting it and some are better, but this largely varies as a function of intelligence (and thinking quality): both of the person hearing the bullshit and the person doing the bullshitting. Generally, we're only really good at spotting bad bullshitters, just as it's easier to spot bad liars.

The bad bullshitters (and liars) also tend to be the ones who bullshit more frequently (Littrell el al., 2021) which might contribute to people's inaccurate beliefs that they're good at spotting deception in general (I'd argue that's partly driven by an availability heuristic; they only recall the times they spotted the (bad) liars/BSers because they're unaware of all the times they were actually duped by good liars/BSers).

In a way, this might be argued to be similar to the example of dishonest signalling you gave (the stick bug). Stick bugs are actually eaten by some species of birds quite frequently, rather than avoided as you stated above. Not necessarily because the birds are always looking for food, though, but because they're looking for sticks for nest building (or perhaps they've developed better detection skills). Purportedly, it helps transport their eggs to new areas (the eggs are coated in calcium oxalate, which birds can't digest, so they poop out the eggs which later hatch in new areas). (Suetsugu et al., 2018). So, the dishonest signalling of stick bugs is effective at bullshitting some species of birds and other predators, but is an example of bad bullshitting against the (more perceptive?) species of birds who are their natural predators.

To extend your idea about "evolution making us better at things," as people get better at detecting BS and lies, people also get better at BSing and lying. For example, people with higher intelligence are not only better at spotting BS, but are able to craft better, more convincing lies and bullshit (Turpin et al., 2021). In other words, smarter people are better able to detect bullshit but smarter people are also able to bullshit better (and get away with it more often).

I agree that people sometimes bullshit themselves as a consequence of trying to bullshit others. I have some preliminary data showing that a sort of self illusory truth effect might occur where someone repeats some bullshit enough times that they start to believe it. I think people also sometimes bullshit themselves as a form of self-motivation (e.g, overconfidence).

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Vilgot Huhn's avatar

This was a great update to Trivers ideas! And more believable than how he describes things. I remember I read Trivers self-deception book back in 2011 and if I recall correctly it had two major categories of problems: 1. I think he was prone to some "over-adaptationism" in how he framed how the mind was formed by evolution. If there's a plausible adaptive need for something, just add a specialized brain module! 2. I think he cited a bunch of findings on how people supposedly self-decieve and detect lies that in hindsight seem like typical pre replication crisis psychology. I remember something about people drawing letters on their forehead in the wrong direction in a way that proves they're self-centred, something like that. I've never looked up the study but it's exactly the sort of thing that I would bet doesn't replicate and also doesn't necessarily imply what he argued it did.

But even so the book has affected how I think about psychology quite a lot (at the time I thought it was amazing). It's nice to see someone sort of salvage the useful essence of it. I still wonder how much of this requires us to invoke specific evolutionary pressures though, or if self-bullshitting can be adequately explained by simple learning. Like is it: "social status is rewarding, the end" or is it "social status is rewarding and threats to it evoke certain (more-or-less) specific responses"?

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